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The reason that was a scandal was because it was illegal under a year-old law that made it a felony, punishable by up to 5 years in prison for each offense, to eavesdrop on Americans without those warrants. Although both the Bush and Obama DOJs ultimately prevented final adjudication by raising claims of secrecy and standing, and the "Look Forward, Not Backward for powerful elites " Obama DOJ refused to prosecute the responsible officials, all three federal judges to rule on the substance found that domestic spying to be unconstitutional and in violation of the statute. The person who secretly implemented that illegal domestic spying program was retired Gen. That's the very same Michael Hayden who is now frequently presented by US television outlets as the authority and expert on the current NSA controversy - all without ever mentioning the central role he played in overseeing that illegal warrantless eavesdropping program. Edward Snowden leaked new details of Michael Hayden's crime. Inviting Hayden to comment on regulation of surveillance is like having Bernie Madoff comment on regulation of Wall Street.

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We now know that the government's spy agency is Hoovering up billions of bits of data from our phone calls and s. But we don't really know how it's being used.

Much of it apparently just sits in a giant top-secret storage facility in Utah. And that makes some people nervous, especially many foreigners on whom we're spying. But we know about the size of the facility, and it'ssquare meters.

He's called a White Hat, which means he's a good hacker - he goes after the bad hackers. And he's from Finland. s, google searches, text messages - many of them belonging to people outside the U. And monitoring foreigners doesn't sound too bad until you realize, in fact, 96 percent of the planet are foreigners. And then there's the argument - all countries spy. But let's take an example.

N.s.a. chief says surveillance has stopped dozens of plots

Let's take, for example, Sweden. Sweden has a little bit similar law to the United States.

When your data traffic goes through Sweden, their intelligence agency has a legal right by the law to intercept that traffic. All right.

How many Swedish decision makers and politicians and business leaders use everyday U. And the answer is, every single Swedish business leader does that every single day. And then we turn it around.

How many American leaders use Swedish Web mails and cloud services? And the answer is zero. RAZ: That actually struck me when you said that in your talk because I was like, yeah, you know, I'm American so maybe I'm not as bothered by it because there are legal protections, right?

I mean, even though I'm not. However, I have been in contact with people who are involved with WikiLeaks.

People involved with WikiLeaks are definitely persons of interest to U. And since we are now speaking right now, we are connected, which makes you somebody they might have an interest what you are actually doing. This is NPR News. Search Query Show Search. Show Search Search Query.

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